I recently had a strange experience I'd like to share with all of you. Hopefully, you can help me understand what is happening in this situation.
A few days ago I posted a photo/message to my Facebook page, the gist of which was, you can be a good person and do good things whether or not you are religious. I didn't receive any comment on the post itself, but did receive more than a few private messages. Let me share a few excerpts with you:
- "If you think anything gets done without GOD, your [sic] a fool. Without HIM nothing is good."
- "You and Derek can do good things without god, then talk about your accomplishments while you burn in hell."
- "This is the most stupid thing! You can't just be good! Only the bible teaches good!"
- "This is from the God hating athiest [sic] Ricky Gervais. He'a [sic] not funny and neither is this post. You can burn along with him if you think this is ok."
Let me clarify a bit. The photo I posted was of Ricky Gervais in the role of Derek, from the wonderful new series of the same name. In fact, this is the exact image I used:
After receiving those messages, I was dumbfounded. I could not understand why anyone would have that kind of reaction. But thinking back on my meetings over the previous years, that same attitude arose several times. It is the 'what I've been taught trumps everything' attitude.
And there is fear there as well. The identity is so intertwined and ever-reaching, if one loses hold of what they have been taught to believe, they hurt themselves. After all, the destruction of belief does not bode well for the believer (it is not as if they are separate, anyway). It is a fear of annihilation, whether realized or not.
But I do not have all of the story. Or perhaps even most of the story. Some of what these people have said must be heavily tied up in what was taught to them. But I know very little about the Bible. Of course, having this website has introduced me to all manner of "experts", although I don't necessarily trust them. Certainly not as much as I trust my readers. ;-)
When Akiko and I delivered food to families in a city half-destroyed by the great earthquake and tsunami of 3/11/2011, was the food somehow less nourishing because I have no religion? When we delivered toys to children spending their New Year's in a labyrinth of newly built shelters overlooking the ruins of their former houses, was their joy lessened because I have no god? It would be gratuitous to answer such questions.
Is this a failure of religion? A failure in the interpretation of religion? A failure in the deeper structure of belief? None of these? Have I seen this in the wrong way?
This experience has re-ignited the fires of my curiosity. I am very interested in your responses here.
How does this appear to all of you?
NOTE: I should mention, I did receive messages from other religious folks who had nothing negative to say at all. Hopefully, I am not painting a one-sided picture in this post. ~ Takuin
9 comments, since Janu
i'm so very sick & tired of theists. they only believe (NOT KNOW) what they do because where they were born, the religion of their parents, & because they're too scared to think differently/outside of the box. they are much like human brick walls. you can't bring up dinosaurs, much less the history of their religions. every time i see a post about "pray for me/him/her/them", i make a mental note that that person talks to imaginary friends, more specifically, an arabian sky fairy. one cannot talk sense with theists, & by sense i mean rationality. sometimes, i wish i had my faith blinders back. the world would be so much easier to deal with. i could pray all the bad away, the bad that i've been taught to think is bad. then i realize how empowering it is to think for myself, & to know there are other rational people out there. if only religious people acted more like the deities they so worshiped.
Hi Takuin, I think there is no great mystery to this, it is as you said, belief and me is the very same thing, belief gets threatened, the me gets threatened, no division there. The me structure wants to survive at all cost and will do everything under the sun to do so, after all, it has a tremendous momentum behind it. This can be very obvious and crude as seen in the replies you received or can be very very subtle as in most, so called, spiritual teachings and Teachers. The tremendous need for self-preservation and self-aggrandizement seems to be in-built in the human race. It is rarely seen, that this is just a very mechanical thing which constantly perpetuates itself thru itself. What puzzles me, is, why do you still want to communicate like that? Of course, if somebody asks you a question............but otherwise...........??? Take care Takuin and all the best and many regards
Thanks, dawkins.
I grew up in a religious town, but not in a religious household. As far as a god was concerned, I was left alone to my own devices. I suppose I should be thankful for that. I wasn't told what to think, so I had the luxury of exploring those things at a slower pace and without interference. I could think without fear of reprisal. All of that thinking done at a young age must have influenced what happened to me much later in life.
I sometimes wonder what might have happened to me had my circumstances been different?
Thanks, Peter. Very nicely said.
That is easy to answer. I only do things I feel like doing. I wouldn't waste my time, otherwise. If I feel moved to do something, I will pursue that thing. It is not that I want to...I don't mean to play too much with the words...but what I mean to say is there is very little premeditation.
When I wrote this post, I considered it for maybe five minutes, then just got to work. I put more effort into finding the photo in my archives, haha.
I don't know that I feel different than I did in the early days of this site. Even though Takuin is a different creature now, just as Peter is different from when we first encountered each other, there is also a constant presence, for lack of a better word. Nothing mystical or religious, mind you.
It is the window, constantly open, to whatever may come.
Hi Takuin I've gotten angry responses before, often in comments themselves. It's curious what will trigger some people. An article on NASA broadcasting the Beatles "Across the Universe" brought out an anti-cult guy. An article on going beyond tolerance triggered someone else. The most anger I've gotten though was a piece on an Aussie teacher. She'd broken away from her original group and teachers from the former group attacked her. Given they were supposed to be about peace and love, I got to remind them of that. Repeatedly.
But you're right. If people have not had the direct experience, they depend on belief. And if those beliefs are associated with their identity, anyone who speaks otherwise is considered a personal attack. It also comes with a complete loss of a sense of humor. You cannot reason with such people. I've also run into people who just look for things to be negative about, attacking even things the agree with. (laughs) No pleasing some.
The "evil Gervais" may have been the button here and its possible they contacted their friends or there is some shared agenda to call him out or shame him or something.
The main word is ignorance. It has long been understood that faith and ethics are two different things. Faith may improve our ethics, but it may not, as in your quote. Their own experience is that people can do good and not believe what they do... but in a scary world they grasp what gives them reassurance.
Can't say I've attracted the attention of the religious right but then, I don't use Facebook. I do write about God sometimes but not in a way they'd recognize. Some use tools to monitor whenever a term comes up so they can express their agenda there.
Curiously, several related subjects showed up in my mailbox today. This one, animating a talk on honesty and rationalization (it mentions religious influence): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmJay_qdNc
And this one on the use of contraception in the Bible (contrary to what is often taught): http://www.salon.com/2014/01/05/biblical_birth_control_the_surprisingly_contraception_friendly_old_testament/
I should note here that I'm neither a theist nor an atheist. That's just a debate over belief. I'm a gnostic - direct experience is the way to know God. ;-)
hi takuin. interesting reactions. i guess its just life happily finetuning itself. i was religious once but no one could explain why an all powerful god needed humans to always intercede on his/its behalf. its awesomely ironic that the word belief has the words "be lie" hidden in it but hey, life itself never has to be defended :-) love, vicki
Yes, great, thank you Takuin...............
A quick note you all might get a chuckle out of...
Someone, and I do not know who, keeps entering my email address at Christian websites to sign up for newsletters and updates. I am smiling as I type this, but that is so not cool.
;-)
I've come along in life learning MANY lessons from my mistakes along the way. Although all were important a couple made me to create my own set of "Rules to live by" One rule that is up there, especially around this area, is DONT TALK ABOUT RELIGION. Now I can't say I've "religiously" (see what I did there? lol) followed this rule, but I've always tried to. That is until I knew for certain I could have a normal conversation about it without being reminded I'm going to hell, and could conversate like intelligent, rational and logical people. Most reaction is based off of what they've learned, or been raised in. Emotion. So it makes sence when people get so bent out of shape when questioned about something they know is truth because this "infallible " book says so. Sadly, these are also the people that, usually,are the first to cast judgemet. Best thing to do, is let em go. The most important thing I have learned is that people are people. Years ago, people created these gods and religions to explain the unexplainable. And it worked making most happy. We were born into an age where new gods didn't need to be created because we finally explained much of the unexplainable. Down the road ( who knows how long) religion will more than likely be cast aside as more realize there is no real need for it. As for now, people still need it, and that's just fine with me too. If Allah, Jesus, Buddah or whoever can make someone a better person, then I'm all for it! It all boils down to what brings the best out of someone. If I'm hated for what I believe cause a book says to hate me, as long as you're a good person in general, hate me. Ill live. lol I don't think you or I will ever see the end of religion, but if you know anything about the chaos theory, and the system/science involved, then you definitely believe it will end. Welcome back to the Bible belt. lol